issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
- Josef Templ
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:50 am
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
Well, Doug, this is almost the same. Isn't it clear what "It" refers to?
The problem with the proposed change is that there are 3 sentences starting with "The run-time debugger",
which to me doesn't sound good.
In general I agree that the user manual part may be improved. Some text from the developer manual could be copied or moved to the user manual.
The reason for its brevity is that I didn't want to make structural changes in the user manual such as introducing a new section for run-time debugging.
Therefore I kept it short, a single paragraph at the end of the debugging section. I also didn't want to over stress the importance of
run-time debugging because in other parts of the docu it is claimed that post mortem debugging is enough.
There is already a link to DevDebugCmds in the user manual, which gives additional info.
- Josef
The problem with the proposed change is that there are 3 sentences starting with "The run-time debugger",
which to me doesn't sound good.
In general I agree that the user manual part may be improved. Some text from the developer manual could be copied or moved to the user manual.
The reason for its brevity is that I didn't want to make structural changes in the user manual such as introducing a new section for run-time debugging.
Therefore I kept it short, a single paragraph at the end of the debugging section. I also didn't want to over stress the importance of
run-time debugging because in other parts of the docu it is claimed that post mortem debugging is enough.
There is already a link to DevDebugCmds in the user manual, which gives additional info.
- Josef
- DGDanforth
- Posts: 1061
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:16 am
- Location: Palo Alto, California, USA
- Contact:
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
My point was to remove any references to "process"Josef Templ wrote:Well, Doug, this is almost the same. Isn't it clear what "It" refers to?
The problem with the proposed change is that there are 3 sentences starting with "The run-time debugger",
which to me doesn't sound good.
In general I agree that the user manual part may be improved. Some text from the developer manual could be copied or moved to the user manual.
The reason for its brevity is that I didn't want to make structural changes in the user manual such as introducing a new section for run-time debugging.
Therefore I kept it short, a single paragraph at the end of the debugging section. I also didn't want to over stress the importance of
run-time debugging because in other parts of the docu it is claimed that post mortem debugging is enough.
There is already a link to DevDebugCmds in the user manual, which gives additional info.
- Josef
The user does not care about the implementation details of the debugger but only wants to debug their source code. The implementationThe run-time debugger is another BlackBox process that is attached as a debugger to the running BlackBox process.
should be a blackbox.
Doug
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
I have downloaded build 1033, and I am still not getting this (the fact I've misplaced my glasses probably doesn't help!).
If so, either these Commands should be in the provided "Dev" menu, or there should be explicit instructions what to add yourself to the menu Text . I think the first option is preferable.
DevDebugCmds says:
I think the reference to "BlackBox processes" in the User Manual should either be deleted or explained.
Robert
Is this referring to Menu Commands?The run-time debugger can be activated with the commands Dev->Debug Command and Dev->Debug Module after selecting a command or module name in a text document.
If so, either these Commands should be in the provided "Dev" menu, or there should be explicit instructions what to add yourself to the menu Text . I think the first option is preferable.
DevDebugCmds says:
I have not yet been able to open this Debug tool. But I think it would be helpful to have a direct blue link here to this Text.For operating the debugger please see the Help text of the Debug tool opened in the attached debugger process.
I think the reference to "BlackBox processes" in the User Manual should either be deleted or explained.
Robert
- Josef Templ
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:50 am
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
> Is this referring to Menu Commands?
> If so, either these Commands should be in the provided "Dev" menu, or there should be explicit instructions what to add yourself to the menu Text .
The mentioned commands are in menu Devindeed, at least that is the intention.
Look at the two bottom-most commands.
Are you using your own Dev menu file (with private modifications) or the one bundled in the download?
> I have not yet been able to open this Debug tool. But I think it would be helpful to have a direct blue link here to this Text.
The Debug tool is opened automatically inside the debugger application when the debugger is started.
If it is not opened, then something is wrong.
Probably it is not opened because in your case the debugger is not started at all.
- Josef
> If so, either these Commands should be in the provided "Dev" menu, or there should be explicit instructions what to add yourself to the menu Text .
The mentioned commands are in menu Devindeed, at least that is the intention.
Look at the two bottom-most commands.
Are you using your own Dev menu file (with private modifications) or the one bundled in the download?
> I have not yet been able to open this Debug tool. But I think it would be helpful to have a direct blue link here to this Text.
The Debug tool is opened automatically inside the debugger application when the debugger is started.
If it is not opened, then something is wrong.
Probably it is not opened because in your case the debugger is not started at all.
- Josef
- Josef Templ
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:50 am
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
It' s not that simple. The user will see two processes (applications) when using the run-time debuggerDGDanforth wrote: The user does not care about the implementation details of the debugger but only wants to debug their source code. The implementation
should be a blackbox.
Doug
and he should understand the meaning of those two applications.
This cannot be hidden from the user.
But I have refined the wording a bit now. Hopefully it's going into the right direction.
The Dev/Docu/User.Man now has subsections for Post-mortem Debugging and Run-time Debugging
and some of the text is moved from DevDebugCmds docu to the user manual.
The diffs are https://redmine.blackboxframework.org/p ... d2bb76b569.
The latest version is http://blackboxframework.org/unstable/i ... 1.1034.zip.
- Josef
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
Aaargh - scream! I thought of that, I thought I had checked it, but, obviously, I got that wrong. It all works now.Josef Templ wrote:Are you using your own Dev menu file (with private modifications) or the one bundled in the download?
I think the wording in build 1034 is much better.
I have now voted (in support!).
Two points though (only one actually relevant to this issue). When the debugger instance opens its main window it is the same size as the original instance's main window. Could it have its own size parameters which it remembers from use to use?
The other point is a suggestion for a new feature regarding menu customisation. We can replace entire system menu files by having our own copy (in this case D:\BlackBoxClient\Dev\Rsrc\Menus.odc replaces D:\BlackBox\1034_187\Dev\Rsrc\Menus.odc). But, I think, it would be helpful to have a mechanism to only delete or insert specific lines into the system menu. In this case I added the lines
Obviously the details need to be worked out. If people think this suggestion is interesting I could give it some more thought.SEPARATOR
"Insert Left" "*F5" "DevSelectors.DepositLeft; StdCmds.PasteView" "StdCmds.PasteViewGuard"
"Insert Middle" "*F6" "DevSelectors.DepositMiddle; StdCmds.PasteView" "StdCmds.PasteViewGuard"
"Insert Right" "*F7" "DevSelectors.DepositRight; StdCmds.PasteView" "StdCmds.PasteViewGuard"
- Josef Templ
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:50 am
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
> When the debugger instance opens its main window it is the same size as the original instance's main window. Could it have its own size parameters which it remembers from use to use?
Yes, that's possible with the latest version.
It required some additional code in HostRegistry but I think it's worth it.
Actually it is a cleanup over the previous version where the Dialog.appName has been set at
an inappropriate place/time leading to a mix of using registry keys from BlackBox and from the debugger.
Now the debugger uses its own registry settings consistently.
If the debugger application is named 'BlackBox Debugger', which is defined in Dev/Rsrc/Strings,
the registry settings are under the key 'BlackBox Debugger', a sibling of the application key ('BlackBox').
When there are no debugger registry entries, some values (MainWindow, language, default fonts)
are inherited, if available.
Please download the latest version from http://blackboxframework.org/unstable/i ... 1.1035.zip.
For the diffs see https://redmine.blackboxframework.org/p ... 8f9e3e6f9f.
- Josef
Yes, that's possible with the latest version.
It required some additional code in HostRegistry but I think it's worth it.
Actually it is a cleanup over the previous version where the Dialog.appName has been set at
an inappropriate place/time leading to a mix of using registry keys from BlackBox and from the debugger.
Now the debugger uses its own registry settings consistently.
If the debugger application is named 'BlackBox Debugger', which is defined in Dev/Rsrc/Strings,
the registry settings are under the key 'BlackBox Debugger', a sibling of the application key ('BlackBox').
When there are no debugger registry entries, some values (MainWindow, language, default fonts)
are inherited, if available.
Please download the latest version from http://blackboxframework.org/unstable/i ... 1.1035.zip.
For the diffs see https://redmine.blackboxframework.org/p ... 8f9e3e6f9f.
- Josef
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
A curious bug?
I open a source code file, select the Module name at the top, click Dev->Debug Module.
The debugger opens, and has a window with a copy of the source code.
But, in this copy, the default Ruler is missing!
I open a source code file, select the Module name at the top, click Dev->Debug Module.
The debugger opens, and has a window with a copy of the source code.
But, in this copy, the default Ruler is missing!
- Josef Templ
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:50 am
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
Thanks for the hint.Robert wrote:A curious bug?
I open a source code file, select the Module name at the top, click Dev->Debug Module.
The debugger opens, and has a window with a copy of the source code.
But, in this copy, the default Ruler is missing!
The default ruler and attributes must be copied explicitly in addition to copying the text contents.
I will add this in the next version.
BTW, to me it is a strange concept that the defaults are stored outside the text model, viz. in the text view.
But this can of course not be changed, so we have to work around this behavior.
- Josef
Re: issue-#187 adding a run-time debugger to BlackBox
Is it worth extending the Guard on "Global Variables" to call TextCmds.SelectionGuard?