BlackBox Framework Center

The thread is separated from here form this message. The reason is discussion of Ivan and Wiki instead the "whats wrong with board".

Ivan,

from reading what Fyodor wrote, he is not complaining that a board is difficutl to read, but that (as I have told you time and again) you are trying to rush decisions, you don't want to give people time to make up their mind, you seem in a hurry as if you are dying tomorrow. So, setting up the wiki now seems to be counter-productive.

Of the second thread I read 3 or four pages, where Boris Ryumshina tries to tell you again and again, that you should stay still and try to listen, that he does not approve for you trying to force the discussion to a Wiki, that you act as an usurper with your fear that I dominate the project (i.e. not let you have all your ideas), that you need to understand that there *is* an organization that needs to be "center", etc.

Specially, Boris says:

Thus, Ivan, you not only know where you chase the process, but also take on the role for which you did not authorize anyone. (google translated)

Thus Ivan, not only did you rush the process, but also you took a role for which nobody authorized you. (my translation)

Peter K, if the translation is anyhow correct, didn't complain so much about the language per se, but that in your eagerness to do something, you prematurely built a new forum without russian language support, and now you wonder, why the Russian OberonCore members didn't all jump the new board to keep me in check. By doing so, you took away opportunities for the Russian members to be more of an active force.

Boris then made it clear:

But we are interested in the development of a common international center. In this case, we do not seek to seize the initiative, to buy the domain, expand the forum and bend the line as we see fit.

So, I see no call from these posts for you to create a Wiki. Nobody asked for that. Boris directly told you that he does not approve of you creating a Wiki. Nobody on this OberonCore-Thread said that they would approve of you creating a Wiki.

And I think you are dead wrong with your assessment that:

About the Redmine and now there is not much objection ... how-to. People put off at first, that they will be forced to learn git, but like razrulili question. And about the same kind of open storage agreed, but has not yet chosen where.

As you can see, the google translation here is not that clear. But to me it seems that your MO is to first create facts, make decisions for others, then let them huff and puff, and then they need to accept your decisions. You certainly did this with this forum, and you seem to do it again and even promote this as a good idea.

Time and again I told you that this will piss people off majorly. The result will be that not one single of your ideas, no matter if they are good or not, will be easily accepted, if at all, simply because those ideas come from you, and people are weary to anything coming from you.

Rene, thank you for lecture again. The discussion is stagnating over and over. My actions heats discussions, but you waste this energy for lectures and discussion of my person. I really do not think that this is interesting for people.

Let's discuss the rules and mission, how to increase productivity of discussions and what technical solutions we need. I force the forum creation and this led us to initial discussions with your help. Now I force the Wiki and it will help the project again. We need to sum up the solutions in some place. You obstinacy in rejection of this simple idea led me do this without voting. For example, we need a place to sum up the results of quorum voting. How you can imaging this in forum only?

Actually I appreciate Ivan's initiative. OK, setting up the Wiki may be premature from a formalistic point
of view but it can be adapted or deletetd or whatever with little effort. So there is no damage and I see it as a proposal that
helps us to make up our mind because now we know that it is possible to set up a Wiki and how such a thing looks like in principle.

The other activities seem to got stuck a bit. For example there is no discussion about the hosting platform any more,
or did I miss it? What exactly are we waiting for?

What are the other center members thinking? There are no signs of life from some of them.
Please get involved.

- Josef

Josef, I do not reject Wiki per se, but I fear that the introduction of even more and more technical solutions for problems we do not yet have, will not lead to more participation, but rather to less of it. instead of concentrating powers they are spread.

Josef Templ wrote: The other activities seem to got stuck a bit. For example there is no discussion about the hosting platform any more,
or did I miss it? What exactly are we waiting for?

First things first.

The technical details are not as important as the organisational. As OberonCore out it:

OberonCore wrote:The Center defines its needs for the working process: forum, site etc. (The decision about main Center tasks which defines the technical needs is the first and foremost question. And it is undefined yet, isn't it? Festina lente.)

As long as we do not know what we do, it's not important with what tool we do it.

Next three posts has separated from here. The reason is discussion of Wiki problems instead the "Center white paper".


I attempted to login to the Wiki page Ivan D posted but was rejected.
That's fine but it made me think of the process of editing that page.
In fact if BlackBox/Component Pascal is so good then we should be able to use
it to communicate all of our needs: Editing wiki pages, posting email messages,
maintaining current versions with rollback, etc.

I am finding it quite disconcerting (annoying, cumbersome) to have so many different
ways of interacting.
-Doug Danforth

DGDanforth wrote:I attempted to login to the Wiki page Ivan D posted but was rejected.
That's fine but it made me think of the process of editing that page.
In fact if BlackBox/Component Pascal is so good then we should be able to use
it to communicate all of our needs: Editing wiki pages, posting email messages,
maintaining current versions with rollback, etc.

I am finding it quite disconcerting (annoying, cumbersome) to have so many different
ways of interacting.

It is not necessary to edit wiki if you are not comfortable with that, you can send fixes by email or better like Robert in forum thread. So everybody see the reasons of changes. Everything is possible in BlackBox theoretically, but nobody do such stuff except e-mail yet. Until volunteer do wiki-hook we are using what we have now.

DGDanforth wrote: In fact if BlackBox/Component Pascal is so good then we should be able to use
it to communicate all of our needs:

I don't think so. Just because a Harley is a really good motorbike, it doesn't mean it is any good at lemon squeezing.

Editing wiki pages, posting email messages,
maintaining current versions with rollback, etc.

Most of these things are not part of the basic framework, and for most of those issues, no components have been done.

There is Werner Braun's O3 Webserver, which could be used to program a wiki server. It could also be used to program a board server, and a versioning server.

But as of now, nobody did that.

This could be worthwile future projects under ther BlackBox Framework Center umbrella, but as of now, they are simply non-existant.

I am finding it quite disconcerting (annoying, cumbersome) to have so many different
ways of interacting.
-Doug Danforth

I fully agree. That's the reason why I was firmly against doing a Wiki right now. We need one communication platform that fully replaces all the functionality of the Omi BB list and adds an archive of messages, instead of patches over patches that simply do not give us all we need.

After this one platform is fully embraced and used, then we can think of further problems we need solved, and then we can look for technical solutions. Step by step.

As it is, the Omi BB list can not be replaced by the BBFC-Forums as they are now. And we all suffer from this.

Josef Templ wrote:
The other activities seem to got stuck a bit. For example there is no discussion about the hosting platform any more,
or did I miss it? What exactly are we waiting for?

What are the other center members thinking? There are no signs of life from some of them.
Please get involved.

- Josef

I agree with Josef. To me the first topic and action should be the choice of a hosting platform. Everything then is done on that platform: messaging, wiki, code, ...

What if we contact ETHZ and see if they have suggestions for hosting in Switzerland (or even at ETHZ)?

http://forum.blackboxframework.org/view ... p=464#p453

DGDanforth wrote:What if we contact ETHZ and see if they have suggestions for hosting in Switzerland (or even at ETHZ)?

This can give result, but we need some freedom in configuring web-server for having flexibility to run BlackBox based server, install any software in future and so on... it will be covered only with some virtual server. Alexey has found very good solution Edis company with not expensive offer.