Specifications for Hosting

[ReneK]

Friends,
as OberonCore and I said, we need specifications for what we want from a web host.

What kinds of problems do we want solved online? I think we generally want two kinds of user stories:

1) As a "center member", when visiting the website, I .....
2) As a "non-center member" BB user, I ....

I propose that every center member write such user stories so that we can then together define the functions of the website, and after we have defined the functions, we can see what kind of hosting services are needed and what they cost vs. what we are willing and able to pay.

I'd love to hear your opinion on this proposal.

Rene

[Ivan Denisov]

Minimum:
Web-site based on CMS (not deciced which yet, the discussion should be continued)
Forum (I will move this PHPBB from my server to new)
Wiki (MediaWiki like Lazarus or Wikipedia)

Minimum:
php + mysql + ruby + 5Gb

Maximum:
VPS

Roman has made good job http://forum.blackboxframework.org/view ... f=3&t=3#p9.

[Ivan Denisov]

Why no feedback on Tibiq?

http://forum.blackboxframework.org/view ... =3&t=3#p24

[ReneK]

Sorry, Ivan. You list your specifications, no reasons or ideas behind them. That's no way to disdcuss things. As I suggest, it might probably be wise to start out with "What do I want to do as a center member" and "what do I want to do as a non-center-member user".

If you want to run this as your private amateur project bound to fail, have fun. In that case, I imagine that there are some people who will want their money back.

If you want to do this with at least a bit of professionalism, you will have to learn to listen to others and actually react to what they tell you.

[Ivan Denisov]

Sorry, Ivan. You list your specifications, no reasons or ideas behind them. That's no way to disdcuss things. As I suggest, it might probably be wise to start out with "What do I want to do as a center member" and "what do I want to do as a non-center-member user".

If you want to run this as your private amateur project bound to fail, have fun. In that case, I imagine that there are some people who will want their money back.

If you want to do this with at least a bit of professionalism, you will have to learn to listen to others and actually react to what they tell you.

Rene, please, your ideas about configuration?
You do not want web-site? Forum? Wiki?
PHPBB needs php and mysql, potential projects with repository can need ruby. 5Gb (from my experience) are enough for a few years.
I collect this configuration from the community messages. No my fantasy.

I did not get this money as salary or something like that. That are the group money for hosting. Please, do not blackmail me because I took responsibility to collect them and make payments. Of course, if somebody wants to be the treasurer and everybody will agree with that I will transfer all not spent money to this new person, but I will not return money back. I am a totally pure and update the balance as often as I can, so please, lets continue constructive discussion about maintaining. Rene, that is you suggestions? I really do not understand that you are do not like. Let's discuss.

I found Bulgarian hosting and Moscow hosting, but than we reject this because of edis gives better services.

[Ivan Denisov]

1) As a "center member", when visiting the website, I .....
2) As a "non-center member" BB user, I ....

I can not answer your question precise, because the role of the "center" is not defined.

- Wiki should be open for everyone (that is the concept of wiki).

- Website can edit "editors of web-site" not exactly from the "center" (who wants and have no bad reputation, know the language). So, for example, I can not fill English language pages, but can ask for Douglas or any to help me. Also somebody can ask me to fill this information in Russian pages.

- The forum I see totally open, without lobbies.

- The version control with a Issue tracking, volunteers will admin it, and Issues can be given by any. Git read is open to everybody, but the decision about merge are made by voting in forum, while we do not choose authoritative volunteers. The voting can be several times about the same feature or bug fix.

[ReneK]

Ivan, I didn't tell you to answer my question by writing user stories, but my question was, if the center members would think user stories to be a good tool to analyse our needs. Now you say that the role of the center is not defined enough to analyse our need. If that really is the case (and not only you, but OberonCore seem to say this), then for sure we cannot actually start implementing what we are unable to analyse! It would be utter folly to even try! In that case, we first have to decide, as a group, what the center is, and what it isn't. To decide goals, a charta, statutes and roles. I remember darkly, that I proposed such a thing, together with discussing all this on a closed temporary forum on the OberonCore website. You didn't agree. You wanted an own forum, an own server immidiately. Don*'t think just do! So you asked for money, and you started your forum. At a time, when there was absolutely no need to use any funds yet. And now again, you want to decide things we do not know we need and what for.

Basically, you keep on harping technical solutions where the organisational and practical need has not been defined.

Let me give you an example. The goal of the "center", I proposed, is to produce stable versions of the Component Pascal Compiler and those subsystems dealing with the underlying operating system(s) and the IDE. As Blackbox is an OpenSource Community Project, Alpha- and Betatesting is not a concern for the "center", but for the larger community. Based on this (not universally approved) definition, I approach your claim "we need a Version Control System!"

I do not know, that "we" need a version control. Not at all.

Who is "we" in that context?

Does the average user need Version Control? What for? I say, they do not! Not Gitorius, not Github, not any!

If I were an average user not interested in programming or alpha/betatesting the Framework, but only in using it, I need:

1) The latest stable version
2) All official releases (though this is not too important)

This can be done with simple links, no need for version control, since those users can only download and not upload anything.

Probably they'd want a repository for non-framework subsystems, and for this, a version control could be wise, but this is not the primary goal of the "center", and for the time being, Helmut Zinn's CPC works fine (BTW: we should have a link from blackboxframework.org to CPC!)

What about users who want to contribute to Framework development by alpha/beta-testing, but who are not part of the center?

They need the above, plus the "latest version, no matter if stable or not", but not any other unstable versions between the last official release and the last unstable release. They test the framework, report bugs and possibly even send in fixes.

They do not need version control, as we do not want them to automatically upload their versions in a way that their possible changes become automatically part of the Framework, and they for sure do not need earlier unstable versions.


Do the center members need a Version control
I think so. I can imagine doing the work without version control, too, but this would be error-prone and probably would add a level of organizational complexity we probably do not want. On the other hand, if we use version control only for the center members, we have to ask if it is necessary to host it on the same server as blackboxframework.org. I do not see much benefit compared to using sourceforge.net and other sites providing that service. So, if we want this directly on blackboxframework.org is a question of time and money.It's nice to have, but not essential.

I can imagine that this approach is different from your thinking. I may even be dead wrong. But by doing user stories and analysis, we can decide

*) who is the user?
*) what is the necessity?
*) how can we solve the issue?

The first part in any analysis is to get to the right questions. If someone tells you that X is not to be questioned, you should start out questioning exactly X, if you really want to get the job done.

Version control is such an issue. Managers without technical understanding get high on such topics, because they have heard that "version control is state of the art", and therefore one "simply needs it". They do not reason, why it is needed and tend to make false decisions.

As I said, I may be dead wrong with my actual user story, but believe me, the approach is correct, and if the center members do their own stories and then compare it to all the others, we get more intelligence, more knowledge and better solutions.

You seem to think that "version control" is a must. Would you please write a user story for every user group you can think of, as I did above? And then we can compare and get even the wiser, because we both actually worked on the topic. And if we can't answer the questions, because we still do not know the role of the "center", then we should stay the hell away from making decisions that need more analysis.

[Ivan Denisov]

Dear Rene, first. I do not spend any funds in my own decision. That is calumny or your misunderstanding. There were a vote for domain name, and I realise community decision, spend ~$11. I am not spend any cent of community money on forum, because it is hosted in my work server. I am giving this contribution for free until we not find the solution about hosting. I am not a moderator or admin in OberonCore forum, I ask them (OberonCore) several times for make international part on the forum, make the registration for foreigners more easy, but all solutions done did not attract much members from mailing list. This was not effective solution. That is why I realise Robert C. idea about separate forum.

I am continuing reading you post...

[Ivan Denisov]

I agree with your story. Terminal user needs zip archive. The VCS needed only for developers who need it. No pushing you or any. But if a group of developers wants to use it, why we should disable that ability? Better it will be the Bitbucket or GitHub repository for not pay for traffic. But Issue tracking that come with GitLab or Redmine and visualisation of changes in synchronised repository can be useful for "center" decisions documentation and "second round" developers.

I think that we need web-site first, wiki and not hurry with our own VCS. But the flexibility of virtual server will allow to make all this stuff later.

[ReneK]

Could it be that you believe Robert and Warren have not joined us at blackboxframework.org, because it is hosted in Russia? And that is the reason why you want to change the hosting situation so badly?

I do not think this is Warren's and Robert's reason, but I asked them both, and I await their answer as soon as their time permits it.

Anyhow, when I said that you used money prematurely, I didn't talk about the forum per se, but I'm talking about exactly those 11 EUR for URL reservation. Yes, the name was voted upon, and that was as it should be.

Yes, my question about using OberonCore as a temporary home for the discussion didn't receive much feedback from the community (OberonCore signalled their willingness to do it).

Now, in a community, the best way if the reaction is not strong, is not to simply do something different (though such actionism is typical for much of the bad management we have in our current economic system), but to talk with those who didn't react and ask them why they didn't answer, and what their ideas are. People skills.

But if one is overfocussed on "doing", one cannot wait, on cannot discuss, one has to "do". Which is almost worse than discussing and thinking so much, that nothing is actually done. Because if you do nothing, nothing happens. An opportunity is lost. But if you do the wrong things for the wrong reasons, ressources are lost, people are scared off. An actuality is lost. While "thinking instead of doing" is bad, and "doing instead of thinking" is worse, the truth is in the middle. There is a need to discuss, to plan and then to do as planned. And you need to discuss and plan as much as necessary and as little as possible.

Think of it as a software program you want to write. If you do the classical waterfall of project management, the result will be "overanalysed". It will be outdated when it reaches the market, and it will usually not be what the one who ordered it, wanted. Classical dilemma,

If you do a RAD without analysing (which is a bad RAD!), you will use tons of manpower and ressources, your product will not be outdated, but if it will be ready-to-marklet at all (after a much too long production time), it will still not be what the one who ordered it, wanted.

In a well-planed RAD, like for instance SCRUM, you take your time to analyse the goals, set priorities and so on. After this initial analysing phase (which also includes SCRUM run planning and prioritizing of allfunctions), you will then have short cycles of interdisciplinary work of analysis, development, testing, bugfixing and documentation, to produce small ready-to-market pieces of the whole software. At the end of each run, the software is presented to the one ordering it, so that he can tell if that was what he wanted or not.

Nevertheless, the initial analysis phase is important, or everything goes to hell.

Now if something is a community effort, you have to keep people included. As soon as you start forcing decisions the community is not ready to make, you will lose them. And then the project dies.